. . Subject: Re: Most people have no idea who Leonard Peltier is. . . . . . . . . . > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... [...] Have you considdered the issue that the radicalization and committing violent acts, if any, is one of the main goals of a Government infiltration attempt of any organization they deem a threat to their control over other people using the Government bureaucracy ? It seems well established (apparently, I'm not in any such movements but reading the I'net, reports etc) that whenever you get an agent infiltrator in your group, or a number of inflitratod agents in your march, that these will propose violence, bring the bombs and commence with attacking infrastructure & police. The aim of this obvious. Therefore we probably have to assume: if there was any Government infiltration into AIM, these agents would have done everything they could to turn AIM toward violence and toward the most generally unsupported political positions/fringe possible (including especially Stalinism (which is the proper word for what Americans erroneously call 'communism'). Foreign involvement seems also to be likely, not only but also because the USA is itself one of the most manipulative nations on Earth, always attempting to influence domestic policy in all nations using legal and illegal activities and money. It makes sense that some sort of secret war broke out between these USA agencies and other nations, if it wasn't ongoing already (which of course it already was, and don't think the USA was on the good side: all governments tend to be on the wrong side, and all people tend to be on the good side, but not always either). These issues are standard operating procedure since the old days of Rome. Trying to find out who caused the violence (if any) in AIM: the early days when it maybe was still nothing hadn't even a name, was it then already violent or did that enter later. * By the way, I note that it is an American obligation to overthrow an unconstitutional Government in the USA, and that posession of weapons to that end is deemed a virtue in the American system of control over Government by the people (compare the Haudenosaunee law, where chiefs who go wayward from the will of the people are surrounded by the people, then the war chief will warn the chiefs 3 times and if the warning is not heeded all the chiefs are killed; which I think is a beautiful system of control, even though it is bloody; can't allow chiefs to go their own way that the people don't want.) That was what 'the founding fathers' stood for: armed overthrow. It is therefore not enough to criminalize any organization in the USA when they collect weapons for an overthrow of the USA Government, especially when that Government is breaking the laws of the nation. Basically you would also have to prove ill-intend, such as a desire to turn the USA into an absolute tirany or something like that. Armed overthrow of Government is a virtue in the USA, for what I know. Hence massing weapons to overthrow the Government in armed battle is technically no reason for the USA Government to be alarmed, to infiltrate or to criminalize. This may sound strange I guess (??), but it is the USA system of Government control. Murdering opponents would be criminal, however this may have been instigated by infiltrated agents (or not), being done by AIM who was apparently subject to infiltration therefore means nothing anymore. It might very well be that the USA criminal Government is using some movement as cover to kill some people they want killed (the USA Government is of course itself a Mafia type organization.) (I know nothing about AIM, but these are the general way the Governments behave. I'd expect these bad behavior by USA Government to grow exponentially worse as time goes on, because the USA is corrupting more & more.) I guess this problem with who is guilty is one of the problems with corrupt Government infiltration in political movements of any kind. -- ,,,,,,, ,,, http://www.socialism.nl/~joshb/sheet3.txt ___/_/////////_//////,. ^ Non-violent true revolution, no guns needed. \\\\ \\\\\\\\\ \\\` The Good Feather ASCII Ribbon campaign for ```````` ` decent Usenet discourse & etiquette. . . . . . . . . . > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... Wow, you can not understand why a Government would send infiltrators into a political group that opposes that Government, and then attempts to radicalize that group and turn it toward violence ? In case you are not joking but you really don't know (or did I misunderstand?): by radicalizing a group, the agents prevent the group from growing, because people don't like radical violent groups. This causes isolation of that group, thus protecting state power. By turning a group into a criminal enterprise, that group becomes liable for law enforcement, such a getting its members / leaders arrested and sentenced to jail (quite possibly for actual crimes, but which may have been done on instigation of infiltrators). The publicity this generates is extremely valuable to turn the public away from that group as well. If you do not understand this then the USA is in enormous trouble, because you probably aren't the only person who doesn't know how corrupt government works. > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... You meant "the first part of your argument I didn't understand or agreed with, hence *for me* the rest doesn't follow." This is also a spurious annotation as it is obvious from your disagreement already. > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... By the nature of these issues, facts are not that easy to come by. http://www.infowars.com/obama-staffer-wants-%E2%80%98cognitive-infiltration%E2%80%99-of-911-conspiracy-groups/ Maybe you are so ultra-naive about white culture and corrupt Government because you are indian, and therefore have no real experience with how these things work ? If so, you may be lucky because of your past, but your naivity will be used against you. > ... > ... > ... > ... For a corrupt Government everyone is the enemy, also the USA people whether they are white, black or 'red' (especially if they are 'red'.) > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... That is what I mean and imho said: armed overthrow to install a Government that will serve the people, in case the current Government does not serve the people (anymore). It looks like you are willfully trying to read me wrong, so that you can complaign. I hadn't realized native indians don't know anything about Government war against their own people. I thought you knew better. Ah, but this does make some sense, beacuse it explains why you always make treaties with known liars such as white people bosses, and why you still complaign that 'enough is enough' about land-grabbing white bosses, and seem to think that these bosses would care (lol). Read my lips: They Are Criminals. They *know* you don't like what they do, but they do care as much as a robber does when you look angry when the robber takes your money, and your coat. Get it ? Criminals. What does the USA Government do in Iraq: robbery on a national scale, pretending not to rob. Classic criminal behavior: you have a government of criminals. How will they react against political groups taht threaten them ? By infiltrating them and trying to radicalize them, knowing how the ppl react to this, and that it opens the group up for law-enforcement, incarceration, and increased infiltration (since it has been turned into a criminal or potential criminal organization, for which proof can be produced.) So I guess you have just dismissed without any evidence the possibility that AIM, which is apparently known to have been infiltrated, has been turned toward violence by these infiltrators, which is a known strategy (not to you maybe, but that's your problem, citing lack of knowledge is hardly proof that it doesn't happen much less that it can't happen or is unlikely, none of which you even began to show.) Infiltration from the inide is more or less the threat in the world. That's what all the democratic laws are for (real democratic laws at least), to wash out the most corrupt from the state. Infiltration is the #1 issue in any state, therefore also for AIM or any other political organization. It just so happens that with very small groups it is most effective to radicalize them. You can't radicalize something as big as the Democratic Party, since it is so big that it might actually suceed into overthrowing the Government by force ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... > ... -- ,,,,,,, ,,, http://www.socialism.nl ___/_/////////_//////,. \\\\ \\\\\\\\\ \\\` The Good Feather ASCII Ribbon campaign for ```````` ` decent Usenet discourse & etiquette. PS Fri Jan 29 08:47:04 UTC 2010 It isn't entirely true that criminal /violent behavior would say nothing about some political organization even if it was instigated by infiltrators, since the organization could have rejected the proposals to do violence and/or thrown out of that organization those who where instigating (criminal) violence.